The Collected Works of Chögyam Trungpa: Volume Eight (66 page)

Sun
: In your birthday address you also spoke of people being more pragmatic and more attentive to politics and the world situation. Given the fact that people all over the world now seem to be suffering from starvation, and war, and the threat of nuclear disaster, could you suggest what we as Buddhists can do to help?

CT
: I think the basis of anything we do to help is nonaggression. If we are to control our own aggression, then we can help others to do the same thing. You don’t have to be speedy and aggressive in order to keep up with the world. But you have to learn to settle down and regard wherever you are as the best seat you could have. So you have to learn how to join heaven and earth together, so to speak.

Sun
: So rather than people going outward and learning more about world politics, you’re suggesting that people take care of their domestic situation to begin with?

CT
: Yes. Relating to international politics will come along with that, although you don’t have to become a politician in Congress or anything like that.

Sun
: As a community of householders, largely, and as a microcosm of American society, many of us are faced with all kinds of domestic conflicts. Could you say something about how to create a sane and nurturing environment for ourselves and our families?

CT
: I seem to have no problem with my family. I don’t think there should be any problem, particularly if people develop a sense of general and greater awareness. There is no problem when people are not stuck on anything but are in the process of expanding. Then they can find a sense of freedom, built-in freedom. Whereas if you feel that you are stuck with one project after another, then you begin to punish yourself. I think the key point is experiencing a sense of freedom and liberation by not being stuck on one thing at a time.

Sun
: So it’s a matter of not being fixated?

CT
: Yes. I might feel stuck with one thing, which might be terrible, but then if I raise my eyebrows, I can make sure that I am not stuck on anything. I myself might get personally stuck on domestic issues alone or on my students alone, but instead I tend to levitate, sort of.

Sun
: So by not being fixated on one thing, you can transcend dichotomies?

CT
: Mm-hm. You don’t try to put everything into a pigeonhole. If you do that, you might find yourself stuck in one pigeonhole. But if you regard your existence as cosmic, then you won’t be stuck on anything.

Sun
: That seems, for people like us, rather dangerous. With a cosmic perspective, whatever our personal interpretations of that may be, you could literally space out and lose touch with Earth.

CT
: Our home is not just this planet Earth; it is our solar system.

Sun
: Since returning from retreat, you have talked about a major real estate development that you would like to build. Could you say something about the nature of that project?

CT
: It would be basically providing a living situation for our community in Boulder and upgrading the current situation. It might include a shopping center, a shrine hall, and well-decorated living quarters for our sangha members, as well as other Boulder residents. It is a way for us to expand. Basically speaking, it would be helping the city of Boulder. And the project would be done in keeping with the vision and laws of the people of Boulder, whatever they might be.

Sun
: I understand that you would like it to be somewhat in the Tibetan style, perhaps terraced on a mountainside?

CT
: Something like that, yes, but with a touch of Japanese.

Sun
: You mentioned that it might be similar to the centers that the Japanese communities in Colorado have built.

CT
: Yes, like Sakura Square in Denver, for example. There would be facilities for older people as well as young people. So we would be creating a social situation that could contribute something to the Boulder community at large. Whatever they would like to see, however they would like us to do this, those wishes could be fulfilled. We have a lot of community members who have poor economic situations, and this could help them as well.

Sun
: During the past year or so, a number of students of Buddhism and other spiritual paths as well have questioned the integrity and ethics of their teachers, which has created a great deal of confusion for these communities. Would you be so kind as to give us your perspective on this situation?

CT
: I think the teachers create a problem when they overcentralize their authority. They shouldn’t be completely in the center, but they have to be slightly ec-centric. They have to learn how to transcend their centralization. Many teachers have centralized things more than they have to. The teachers haven’t learned enough about situations to be eccentric. I think largely they are afraid that they might lose their grip if they expand too much. But then they end up being trapped by that particular problem, of trying to keep their personal grip. In Buddhism, as well as other traditions, as far as I can see, the teachers shouldn’t have that problem if they learn how to expand.

Sun
: Often the question comes up of how you know whether a person is enlightened or not. Many of the students begin to say, “How can we tell if this person is really an authentic teacher?” Is that the right approach for students to take?

CT
: I think that is the right approach, but at the same time, it’s like parachuting. How do we know when we are going down, or how do we know our parachute is going to open? So we float.

Sun
: Are you saying we should just relax and float?

CT
: Yes. First you have to jump, then you have to just let the parachute open, and then you begin to float.

Sun
: If we may go back to the idea of eccentricity, how does that relate to the idea of lineage on one hand and democracy on the other? I think that, within the American Buddhist community, out of this confusion there are a lot of questions now about how these two forms of organization relate to each other. Are you saying that power or authority ought to be more let go of by the central figure and more spread throughout the sangha?

CT
: I think that conflict is purely cultural. When the teachers realize that they have created some kind of centralized situation, they could let go more. One reason they don’t let go is because they feel that, if they do, swarms of outsiders will take them over. As far as leadership is concerned, they should have more confidence in the people who work for them. That is what we’ve been doing. The more you trust others, the more power you receive. At the same time, you don’t declare yourself as a stronghold, but you share your power with others. Then, when the students begin to feel so trusted, they begin to see their own basic goodness.

Sun
: In a culture where the norm is worshiped, and eccentricity is seen as off, what is the attraction of eccentricity?

CT
: The students are included in the eccentricity. So it’s based on the teacher’s trust. It is like giving your car keys to a driver, rather than always driving yourself. You might not want to do that, because you might be giving the keys to a bad driver, which makes more trouble for you. But you can’t become a backseat driver.

Sun
: So you make the students nervous enough so that they learn how to drive the car?

CT
: Or visionary enough.

Sun
: What do you think about the sexual misunderstandings or chaos that seems to be a strong part now of people’s paranoia about teachers?

CT
: I think it is a question of how the teachers respect or worship others. If they begin to regard their students like a flock of sheep that they could do anything with, it doesn’t work. On the other hand, worship goes in both directions. That’s where the Mary and Joseph story comes from: because they worshiped each other, they gave birth to Christ. That’s known as immaculate conception.

Sun
: Sir, what direction do you think the Vajradhatu sangha should take now in order to further the development of buddhadharma in the West?

CT
: For practical reasons, practice more and have some sense of celebration. Usually, religion is connected with punishing yourself. People still tend to take original sin seriously. They should let go of that. Maybe basic goodness will replace original sin!

Sun
: Do you think it is possible for Westerners who have been studying original sin for all these years to . . .

CT
: I think probably they inherited it from their parents, from past generations. Fundamentally speaking, that produces no joy but only more fear. There should be more joy and celebration.

Sun
: Are you saying that to the sangha
and
to the West as a whole?

CT
: Mm-hm.

Sun
: Sir, you’ve been teaching in America for about fifteen years now. Do you have any observations about the development of Buddhism during this time?

CT
: I think we have done a good job so far. I always build people up; I never put anybody down. Because of that, we’ve gained more mileage. Each time you give them an inch . . .

Sun
: Each time you give them an inch, you give them a mile?

CT
: Mm-hm.

Sun
: Vajradhatu has now established Canadian headquarters in Halifax, Nova Scotia, and last summer, Vajradhatu hosted the first International Sangha Conference there. Why do you feel Canada is particularly fertile ground for the buddhadharma?

CT
: For one thing, Nova Scotia is like being in Boulder. Like Boulder, Nova Scotia is a small place where you can expand yourself. When something is small, it can expand much more.

Sun
:
Newsweek
magazine recently had an item where they said that Trungpa, a Tibetan guru, is rumored to have secret plans to take over Nova Scotia and is building a multimillion-dollar empire here in Boulder. Do you have any response to that?

CT
: I would say both yes and no. Yes, because the rest of the world could become Buddhists. And no because we are not trying to just create our own little thingies, our own little kiosks.

Sun
: Do you have any advice for spiritual teachers who have had difficulty working with Western students?

CT
: Make friends in the right manner, and trust the students more than they trust themselves.

Sun
: How can you trust somebody more than they trust themselves?

CT
: You can use other people as a perfect mirror. You can’t knock down the mirror because it begins to reflect yourself. The mirror can give you more feedback than you could possibly give to yourself. When you find yourself cutting off the feedback, then there’s a problem.

Sun
: While you were on retreat, two new books that you wrote were published. The first one was
First Thought Best Thought
, your book of poetry. In this culture, poetry is somewhat considered elitist or precious, something only a few people relate to. Could you say something about the role that poetry might play in the journey of the Buddhist practitioner?

CT
: It’s a question of writing your own mind on a piece of paper. Through poetry, you could find your own state of mind. That’s precisely the concept of haiku: writing your mind. You learn how to express that. That’s how we try to work with poetics at Naropa Institute. People shouldn’t be too dilettantish or artistic, but they should write their own state of mind on a piece of paper. That’s why we say, “first thought best thought. “We have to be very careful that we don’t put too many cosmetics on our own thinking. Thoughts don’t need lipstick or powder.

Sun
: Sir, the other book that was published in the past year was
Shambhala: The Sacred Path of the Warrior
. How does the path of the warrior differ from the traditional path of the Buddhist practitioner?

CT
: That goes along with what we were talking about earlier on: how you can combine spirituality with domesticity. That is a very important topic. As it is mentioned in the book, in this case the warrior obviously doesn’t create warfare, but being a warrior is being brave. Warriorship is a question of what we call joining heaven and earth together, which means joining mind and body in our living situation. Mind is heaven and body is earth. After we join heaven and earth, then the third principle, man, begins to develop.

Sun
: Are there particular disciplines that one would practice in order to do this?

CT
: In Shambhala Training we teach disciplines to accomplish this. Another important discipline is speaking good English. When you speak your language as it should be spoken, you are also joining heaven and earth together. In the past two years, I have been teaching elocution to my students. Elocution is based on making a proper connection to vowels and consonants. In the Buddhist tradition, this is the principle of mantra, but it can also be applied in everyday speech.

Sun
: Are the vowels and consonants heaven and earth?

CT
: Mm-hm. You start with the vowels, which are space, or heaven. Then you add the consonants to that, which represent earth. Elocution is largely based on those principles.

Sun
: During your retreat, you decided to develop Rocky Mountain Dharma Center
¹
into a facility for seminary and other programs. Is the form that RMDC is taking, having the programs occur in tents outdoors, reminiscent of the Tibetan form of nomadic tent culture?

CT
: Tent culture is based on traveling and setting up your own court wherever you go. The building project at RMDC is more like tents becoming solid. We found in Tibet that when we put up a tent in winter, it froze, so it almost became a house rather than a tent made out of cloth.