I'll Be Your Mirror: The Selected Andy Warhol Interviews (33 page)

AW: Here we are passing through the smelly fish counter. They sell the best lox here and smoked salmon. It’s really fresh–terrific–but let’s go to the perfume department. It’s too hard to shop here. There’re too many people. I shop here only after I go to my gym class in the morning ‘cause there aren’t as many people. Then I come by here and try to get a lot of free samples. You can get your face made up, too. Do you want your face made up?

TB: No, not today.

AW: Oh, shall we go to Calvin Klein? Do you have any free samples of the new men’s cologne?

CALVIN KLEIN SALESMAN: No, actually we just ran out, but if you want to wait a second I have some hidden.

AW: Oh great. I came to a lunch here with Calvin Klein when they introduced his new men’s cologne. It was so exciting.

SALESMAN: (
Returning with a handful of samples
) Here you go.

AW: Oh great, thanks. Well, let’s go to all the people I like best of all. Can we go to Halston?

TB: Sure.

AW: Well, actually, my favorite product, I don’t know if they sell it here, is Janet Sartin. She does my face. Oh, there’s something free. Are you giving away something for free?

SALESGIRL: It’s for a trip to Ireland.

AW: Oh well, never mind. It’s too dangerous. There’s Halston. Let’s take a picture. (
To Halston salesgirl
) How’s the perfume selling?

HALSTON SALESGIRL: Very well. It’s one of our best sellers.

AW: Oh great. Well, did anything funny happen to you today? Any big movie stars like Rex Smith come in today?

SALESGIRL: No. But I’ve waited on Cher Bono before. She comes in a lot. And Sylvester Stallone. I think he lives nearby also.

AW: Well, thanks a lot.

AW: Okay, let’s blow this joint and go into the Maud Frizon shoes. Oh I have to get some Supp-hose (he calls them “suppose”) first. Can I do that?

TB: Sure. What do you do with Supp-hose?

AW: Oh, I
wear
them. They keep my feet less wrinkly. Where do you think they are? Oh I know, over in men’s.

HOSIERY SALESWOMAN: Who’s next?

AW: I want some Supp-hose.

SALESWOMAN: (
brusquely
) What size?

AW: Small.

SALESWOMAN: What’s your shoe size?

AW: Oh, uh, 8.

SALESWOMAN: Well, you need medium. I don’t have smalls anyway.

AW: Okay, medium, I guess black. How much are they?

SALESWOMAN: $5.50 a pair.

AW: Well, can I have about 10 pairs?

TB: Go through Supp-hose, fast, do you?

AW: No, they last
forever
. I don’t think I’ve thrown a pair away. It’s so incredible, really, this is the first time I’m buying them in 20 years.

SALESWOMAN: Here you are.

AW: Oh, those look brown.

SALESWOMAN: No, that’s just the box. They’re black. Is this a charge?

AW: Cash (
pays with $100 bill
). But it’s not going to take hours, is it?

SALESWOMAN: Well, I’ll have to go to the service desk and change it. You’ll have to wait a few minutes.

AW: It takes so long here. They take all money to the service desk. Even $20. You can’t give money here, I’m telling you. They actually have to go up to the ninth floor, I think.

TB: It takes a long time at Neiman’s, too.

AW: Oh, I
love
Neiman’s. It’s great–less people. They gave me the best party. They did it in the boiler room at the main store in Dallas. It was so exciting. (
Saleswoman returns with Supp-hose
) Thanks a lot. I have a bag.

AW: So where do you want to go now? Look! That’s a real person sitting with those mannequins, but we just passed him by. Let’s see if we can buy a white sweater. Let’s see if they have those cable . . . cable, uh, what are they called?

TB: Cable-stitch?

AW: Yeah, they must be around here somewhere. Is that the movie star Meryl Streep? No, I don’t think so. . .. Oh, here’s the Ralph Lauren. These are the best clothes. Look at the cowboy shirts, aren’t they beautiful? (
Pointing to white cashmere sweater
) Do you have this in large?

SWEATER SALESMAN: (
with a British accent
) No I don’t, sir. I have medium, small and extra. Obviously this is not for you.

AW: No, it’s a gift. What about these, with the sleeves?

SALESMAN: Now that I could give you in a large. How large is he? A 44? You see they come in sizes. Is he a big large or a. . . .

AW: Gosh, I don’t know.

SALESMAN: How about this, does this look like him? This is about 180 pounds.

AW: Gee. You get more for your money with a bigger size, don’t you?

SALESMAN: That’s right, you certainly do. That’s one way of looking at it.

AW: So you don’t have just a large?

SALESMAN: Well, that would be a large, you see. 44 is large.

AW: Uh, pretty, gosh. Well, what size are you?

SALESMAN: I’m a medium.

AW: You are?

SALESMAN: Yes, I’m a skinny medium. So, is he much bigger than me, or. . . .

AW: No, I think he’s about as big as you. A medium. What size is that? A 40? Does that fit you?

SALESMAN: Yes, this would fit me. In fact, it would be a little big for me because I’m a
skinny
40.

AW: A skinny 40? How skinny are you?

SALESMAN: I’m only 162 pounds.

AW: Really? Gosh. Well, I don’t know. These stretch, don’t they?

SALESMAN: They do, yes.

AW: How much are they?

SALESMAN: They’re $195 with the sleeves and $130 without.

AW: OK, well. I’ll take this and if it’s not right I’ll bring it back.

SALESMAN: All right, sir, fine. Shall I have it gift wrapped?

AW: No, just in a bag.

SALESMAN: How will that be, sir, cash?

AW: Well, do you have to go upstairs?

SALESMAN: (
laughs
) No sir, we’ll trust you.

AW: Well, thanks very much. Have a nice day.

TB: Do you still want to go to Maud Frizon?

AW: Yeah. They are right there by the Armani. They’re
really
beautiful.

Aren’t
they great?
Let’s take a picture. (
Kissing the shoe
) This is the picture in
Vogue
.

TB: That’s going to be good.

AW: Did you hear those people that just walked by? They said “Oh, there’s Andy Warhol–oh, we don’t care.” That’s why I go shopping here.

Andy Warhol’s
America
, published this month by Harper & Row, is a photographic essay by one of the most well-known artists in this country. At 58, Warhol has produced a book with more than a few surprises. Coming from an artist whose prevailing expression always has been deadpan and whose dominant trait appears to be passivity, his pictures are oddly funny, touching, and sad. There are celebrities, of course (Warhol, a professional celebrity himself, has access to nearly everyone and anyone). But in
America
Warhol delights in making his famous people look ordinary. These are Pop pictures portraying the flip side of America–the downtown, underground culture–an iconoclastic view of mainstream culture. The pictures comprise an unmistakably singular vision of the United States.

American Photographer’s Michelle Bogre talked with Warhol (and H&R editor Craig Nelson, who spent nearly every afternoon for two years sorting through 200,000 contact sheets) at the renovated power station on East 32nd Street in New York, which serves as the offices of Warhol’s
Interview
magazine and headquarters of Andy Warhol Enterprises Inc.

AMERICAN PHOTOGRAPHER: Before we start, I want to tell you that I really like these pictures. They are very funny. I think they show a side of you that most people don’t know about. How did the project evolve?

ANDY WARHOL: We took too many trips, and when we went on trips I always took the camera with me.

AP: At what point did you decide you were going to do the book and take pictures specifically for it?

AW: Half and half.

AP: What kind of camera did you take with you while you were traveling?

AW: I use a Chinon. It has automatic focus.

AP: Do you ever go out just to make photographs?

AW: No, except for this book. To get some stuff we took a $50 taxi ride to get parts of the city we hadn’t seen.

AP: Why do you take pictures?

AW: I just do it because the camera is something to carry around in my pocket.

AP: How long have you been taking pictures? Not just for this book. . . .

AW: Since 1974. It was a big mistake not to have started much earlier.

AP: In your book
POPism
you wrote that you had started taking pictures in the early sixties, but that you stopped because cameras were too complicated.

AW: Yes, they didn’t have the good automatic cameras then. It just takes too long to set up the other kind. I did try using a Minox because it was the smallest camera, but I had to set the focus by distance, and two out of three of the pictures would be out of focus. I love Minox cameras, though. I have about 40 of them. It’s such a nice camera and takes real nice pictures.

AP: Were most of the photographs in the book taken in the past two years?

AW: Yes. This is a book about what is going on now. We wouldn’t want to use faded celebrities from the past.

AP: What criterion did you use to select the 300 or so final images for the book? There were hundreds of thousands of negatives.

AW: We picked out the bad ones and left the good ones in the box.

AP: Do you think it’s possible to take a bad picture?

AW: No. Every bad picture is a good picture.

AP: So every good picture is really a bad picture?

AW: Yeah.

AP: That sounds Pop. Do you think your photography is Pop photography?

AW: Well, yes–Anyone can take a good picture. Anybody can take a picture.

AP: So that makes it Pop photography?

AW: Yeah. All photography is Pop, and all photographers are crazy.

AP: That includes you, then. Why are all photographers crazy?

AW: Because they feel guilty since they don’t have to do very much–just push a button.

AP: Maybe they feel guilty about being voyeurs?

AW: No, only about pushing a button. Most of them don’t even look.

AP: Don’t you look when you take pictures?

AW: No. And with the Chinon, you can push the button more than once ‘cause it just keeps going.

AP: Good pictures aren’t quite that random. I don’t believe you don’t look, and I don’t think the humor in your pictures is accidental. It’s too consistent.

AW: Well, I shoot at least two rolls a day.

AP: The humor is interesting. It contradicts your image and any assumptions that you’re emotionless.

AW: Oh, no! You mean the assumptions are gone? We can’t have that.

AP: So you think the good ones are just good luck?

AW: Yeah, I do.

AP: Then what made you choose one bad picture over another?

AW: I didn’t have anything to do with the selection . . . Actually, we tried to select best sellers.

AP: Did Craig make the initial selections for the book?

CRAIG NELSON: Yes. Then Andy would say “No, no, no, no, yes, no . . .” to my choices. I usually got approval for one picture out of nine.

AP: Do you have releases for all the photographs that went into the book?

AW: No, we had to go back and get them. That was drudgery. If we couldn’t get the release, we wouldn’t use the photo.

AP: What is your vision of America?

AW: It’s a good vision. Actually, the best vision is on TV. I wanted to shoot all the pictures off the TV. No one would have known the difference.

AP: The book seems very patriotic. Are you patriotic?

AW: Yeah, I am very patriotic. This is a book for those who never thought they would be patriotic.

AP: It looks as though some pictures here took you to places you might not normally go, such as the Fort Worth Livestock Exchange.

AW: I went to Fort Worth to see, uh . . . the cowboys, the rodeo. The Exchange is the only other thing to do in Fort Worth. It’s a very small town.

AP: Do you like to look at work by other photographers?

AW: I try to copy them.

AP: Do you have a favorite?

AW: Actually, I used to collect photos from the drugstore that people forgot to pick up. I have boxes of those.

AP: Did you try to copy any of those?

AW: No. But it’s so weird to have pictures of people you don’t know. The most exciting work I’ve seen lately are these paparazzi photos from the forties of movie stars and things that someone is printing on really good paper. They look so beautiful . . . like the greatest pictures in the world.

AP: Nowadays do you ever print your own photographs?

AW: Not now. When I first started out in New York, art was out and photography was in, so I got a camera and set up a darkroom. But then I got some art assignments from Bonwit’s or something like that.

AP: Who prints your work now?

AW: I get someone who is sort of famous as a photographer to do my printing. Then I don’t know whether it’s his picture or my picture.

AP: YouVe dabbled in all sorts of art mediums, and you’ve made films. Are painting and photography some sort of consistent thread?

AW: Yeah. [
He looks at his fingers, stained with black paint from the painting he was working on when we arrived at the Factory.
]

AP: Do you shoot only in black and white?

AW: Sometimes I use color film that develops itself.

AP: You don’t use any other kind? It seems that color would be interesting to you since you are a painter and your sense of color is so vivid.

AW: Well, nobody is interested in color pictures, so we do black and white.

AP: So you avoid using color for commercial reasons, not artistic?

AW: Yes. Besides, I don’t know what to do with those little slides. I hate them. Nobody can see them. Black and white is easier.

AP: Is it more interesting?

AW: No, it’s just a record. Color makes it more like a photograph. You have to think of it as a photograph. But in black and white its just a picture.

AP: What’s the difference between a picture and a photograph?

AW: A picture just means I know where I was every minute. That’s why I take pictures. It’s a visual diary.

AP: When you shoot alongside other paparazzi, do you consider yourself one of them?

AW: I am. I always get in because I’m with the magazine.

AP: As founder and publisher of
Interview
, you have access to almost everyone–access that most photographers would kill for.

AW: I get scared sometimes when I’m taking pictures.

AP: Scared of what?

AW: That someone might hit me.

AP: You’re probably the world’s least intimidating human being. Has anyone ever threatened you?

AW: I don’t know. No one has ever tried to take my film away.

AP: In the book you have a section on wrestling. Do you go to wrestling matches to photograph or for fun?

AW: Oh, we go for fun. Everybody says the wrestlers don’t hurt each other, but they do. Debbie Harry says that sometimes they really miss and that they like the pain. She knows all about wrestling.

AP: Did you meet the wrestlers you photographed?

AW: We went backstage. They are really adorable. They put those images on when they go onstage.

AP: Do you usually talk to the people you photograph?

AW: I only talk to the people when I have to. The other people in my pictures are miles away. These are just snapshots.

AP: When did your interest in social issues develop? That’s a seldom-seen side of you that’s in the book.

AW: What pictures show that?

AP: The text and pictures about the land, and the infrastructure.

AW: Meeting people in Aspen made me aware of the land.

AP: Do you still go out and do interviews for
Interview?

AW: I don’t know, maybe they dropped me; they took my name off the cover. I could do every one if I wanted to.

AP: Yes, since it is your magazine. What do you ask people?

AW: I just ask the same questions: What is their favorite color? Do they like Craig Nelson?

AP: If in the sixties, as you wrote in POPzsm, “the crazy, druggy, jabbering away and doing their insane things” inspired you, what inspires you these days, since the scene is much quieter?

AW: Oh, no, it’s much more exciting now.

AP: In what way?

AW: There’s more of everything. Artists are being the stars. Now you have nightclub art, video art, and late-night art.

AP: So artists are finally getting the respect and recognition they deserve?

AW: No, they’re just getting the media attention.

AP: So, what inspires you?

AW: Keeping the payroll going.

CN: Staying in the papers.

AW: Not staying in the papers.

AP: You’re not really interested in all the publicity?

AW: No, I never was.

AP: Come on.

AW: No, I never really wanted it.

AP: Do you consider photography a passive activity? Is that why you like it?

AW: It’s not passive for the photographers who really fight to take their pictures. My God, it’s really crazy. There are real fights. More and more people are beating up photographers.